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[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Part 2

Karen McNamara: I’ll be perfectly honest I don’t remember if it was the Haverhill PD that told me that that car was out commission that night. It may have been a detective that I had talked to later. I don’t I don’t really remember. Um if it was at that point they told me that. I don’t know.

Alex Clogston: And the first time you talked to the family was... when was that before you found their website? Or was... had you talked to them before? And this is the Missing Maura Murray website which I which the forum has been taken down.

Karen McNamara: I think that um, I think that someone had told me about the website. And that they were looking to gather information and I went on the website and I either emailed or called Helena.

Alex Clogston: Uh, I uh I have a copy of the initial email from Helena Dwyer-Murray. And it's got a date of 7 April 2005. I don't know if that was the date she sent it back to you or if that was the date you sent the initial email because it’s got your email address right on it. Do you remember if 7th of April was about the first time you seen the website and..?

Karen McNamara: I don’t remember.

Alex Clogston: ‘Cause then the...

Karen McNamara: I don’t remember the day I had actually um... Helena said that she wanted to talk to me um and we met at...

Alex Clogston: And this was after you posting or sending her the email?

Karen McNamara: I'm not sure. I'm not sure if I had talked to her. But if that was the initial contact that I had with her then maybe that was when it was.

Alex Clogston: Well, some people have kind of speculated that you’ve you know have tried to interject yourself in the case this that and the other thing and you know kind of you know that this is only recently…

Alex Clogston: And the first, uh the first online account of Witness A that I could find anywhere was dated in 2008. And that was someone on the Topix forums it was since transitioned to Yuku named Weeper...

John Smith: Yeah.

Alex Clogston: … who posted this exact email so you must have copied it uh from the website…

John Smith: That’s one of our private investigators…

Alex Clogston: ...or got it from the family directly. So that was in 2008 this predates that by three years. So to me that kind of squashes the people saying well she wants to be you know interjecting herself into the case. You know not only the fact that you've never wanted to use your name kind of speaks to that to me too but…

John Smith: I'd like to interject one thing about Weeper. Weeper was actually one of the um uh original PI’s with the New Hampshire league of private investigators.

Alex Clogston: I was actually wondering if maybe that is who you had spoken to. Because along with the initial email from Helena Dwyer-Murray, there is a report from I assume a PI or a detective of some sort it doesn't give a name, that was present during an April 24th 2005 meeting between you and members of the family. It doesn't say who. But they basically corroborate all the same stuff and I was wondering if maybe even that was you know I'm sure that’s somebody...

John Smith: Ummm hmmm.

Alex Clogston: ...who was kind of a player...

John Smith: Frank, F Frank, I’ll use his name, Frank the investigator actually said that…

Alex Clogston: I’m not implying that...this definitely is Weeper but...

John Smith: Right..but...

Alex Clogston: ...its someone…

John Smith: It it it is. I can confirm that for you. That that’s who that was.

Alex Clogston: Oh OK.

John Smith: Yes. And because he stated to us that Karen McNamara is one of the most credible witnesses he has ever spoke with in his 30 years of private investigation.

Karen McNamara: Oh, that was nice.

Alex Clogston: So uh, so to me that kind of sets up the timeline like I said the fir first thing I can find online was 2008 and this predates that by quite a while and is only just barely a year after the actual accident.

John Smith: Umm hmmmm.

Karen McNamara: I didn't have a sense of how important what I saw was until Helena had pointed out to me on the website that the time was in conflict with my, my uh, cell phone records.

Alex Clogston: When you made your uh...and we may as well get right into that. The transcript of the meeting between you and Weeper, um, you had your cell phone records present at the at this meeting you don't have them now…

Karen McNamara: Ummm hmmm.

Alex Clogston: …but you had them then and basically it says the same exact story you gave us. It is the same story. But then it says ummm… “Karen said that she usually called home before leaving work and then again on her cell phone when she got to the top of the hill at Beaver Pond because then she got cell reception. That night she could not confirm if she called home prior to leaving work, but she did have her cell phone call record for that night. Her first call after reaching Beaver Pond was to check her voicemail at 7:52 p.m. The distance from the accident site to Beaver Pond is 11 miles. If she were traveling at 30 to 35 miles per hour it would have taken about 18 minutes at 40 miles per hour about 17 minutes. This means she would have passed the accident site at about 7:35.”

Alex Clogston: And if you go on Google Maps and punch in those two point A to point B it gives you a time of about 14 minutes. So that puts you at the scene at around 7:38. Um and this says “This means she would have passed the accident site at around 7:35.” So that's pretty close. “According to the dispatch records Cecil Smith H2 arrived at the scene at 7:46.” And this is uhhh Weeper’s or whoever's kind of assessment of the meeting was that “Perhaps Karen misjudged where she was when she made the 7:52 call.”

Alex Clogston: And note being familiar with that road myself it is a it is a desolate stretch of pitch pitch black trees and Beaver Pond is the only place there you can pull off. Not only is it the only place you can get cell reception it’s the only you can place pull off really. So that there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that you had the location of this call completely accurate. “Or law enforcement have a timing problem” according to Weeper. Or could another law enforcement vehicle 001 have been at the scene?” It goes on then to say “Karen assumed the law enforcement vehicle was Haverhill. Karen saw no one walking or running on route 112 after passing the accident.”

Karen McNamara: Or before.

Alex Clogston: Or before. And if you take in the account of you leaving work at 7:15 which is also given in both accounts, both you initial email and the account of whoever was reporting on your meeting. If you leave at 7:15 from that area is about 5.6 miles to the Weathered uh Weathered Barn corner which is a rough driving time of 11 minutes which add sub somewhere about 7:26.

Karen McNamara: Ummm hmmm

Alex Clogston: And you say you stopped for a bit not necessarily sure of how long but a lot of people criticize the timeline and say its way off, but to me it seems like it's getting more and more accurate. Ummm. 19:33

Karen McNamara: Well… (Laughs)

Alex Clogston: And then you went on to say in the uh e-mail messages between us that “If I made a call after Beaver Pond it would put me at the accident scene even earlier than 7:4... 7:35. It is impossible to make a call before Beaver Pond.” And you were working on finding your account number but I think the, the um report where you had your records right there is basically concrete proof of your first phone call.

Alex Clogston: Ummm… a couple of there was a few people talking on Reddit which is a dangerous place to read and they were kind of critiquing um some of your story saying they had an issue with some of it and I just just wanted to address some of those I know a lot of people like I’ve said I think what you have to say is amongst the most important things in this case and a lot of people have questions about it don't believe it. Ummm, one of the uh questions is what gave you the feeling that something was wrong and you had to stop and what gave you the the eerie feeling as you passed the scene?

Karen McNamara: Intuition

Alex Clogston: Uh, bas basically they said you you you know drove by saw a police car you still thought that something was kind of out of out of…

Karen McNamara: Umm hmmm

Alex Clogston: the ordinary…

Karen McNamara: Um hmmm. It’s just intuition. It was a very strong feeling that I could h.. you know that it felt like I could hear sss...you know a call for help. And but it, but in my head it didn't make sense. It's like I feel that but that uh it didn't make sense. I looked over my shoulder and I'm like the police are there. My cell phone doesn't work. And it doesn't even look like a bad accident. So uh...

Alex Clogston: And you...

Karen McNamara: ...I but I had to you know I had to think like should I go back and see if I can help? But like what would I do? Say excuse me police officer let me take this over? It’s like...

Alex Clogston: Right

Karen McNamara: I don't I don't know. And I you know I wonder why I didn't follow my intuition. Unless um, you know who knows, in retrospect I think maybe I'd be missing too.

Karen McNamara: It bothers me that people even think that I would want to insert myself in this case.

Alex Clogston: Ohhh

Karen McNamara: It’s like, that’s crazy.

Alex Clogston: Yeah. well there are people that do do that.

John Smith: There are? (Laughs)

Alex Clogston: So, there's no shortage of that. Um, one of the other criticisms was there were a couple in a couple accounts it was mixed up as to whether according to Weeper you made uh the first phone call was to check your voicemail but you say you usually call your father...

Karen McNamara: Or my husband.

Alex Clogston: ...or your husband.

Karen McNamara: Yeah.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Part 3

Alex Clogston: Because there are some that say it’s your husband and there are some that say it’s your. And some people think that's kind of strange but I think those people and uh I don’t want to answer the question for you but I I don't think those people understand what that section of Route 112 is like at night it is completely...there isn't… once you round the corner after Maura’s car there are a few houses for a little while but there isn't a street light until you hit Woodstock 17 miles away. Karen McNamara: Umm hmmm

John Smith: I’ll tell you what, uh, you know I’m as old as I am as big as I am and I carry a weapon I’d be scared to death walking down that road. I’ve got no...

Alex Clogston: Think of that but it's it's not just a uh back road it's actually it goes through

Karen McNamara: It’s a forest...

Alex Clogston: It goes through a mountain pass

John Smith: Yes

Alex Clogston: ...it goes through Kinsman notch which is right where Beaver Pond is that somehow is where it opens up and where you get your cell phones service.

Karen McNamara: I don’t know

Alex Clogston: So to me, it doesn’t strike me as odd that you

Karen McNamara: I know a lot of people that tell me they wouldn’t even drive that road. And it used to be that there were a lot of potholes and it was very very bumpy more so than now. The road’s been repaired quite a few times.

Alex Clogston: Well basically they were saying well, what did she do before she had a cell phone not drive and so I…

Karen McNamara: I live here

Alex Clogston: I moved here when I was a freshman in high school I think.

Karen McNamara: Ummm hmmm. That’s right.

Alex Clogston: Maybe ninety four, ninety five

Karen McNamara: Ninety six… yeah

Alex Clogston: And you also said that when you saw the vehicle nose-to-nose the blue lights were still on...

Karen McNamara: Umm hmmm.

Alex Clogston: … the SUV?

Karen McNamara: Umm hmmm.

Alex Clogston: And there were no no lights on on the Saturn?

Karen McNamara: I didn't see any on the Saturn. I didn't see that.

Alex Clogston: Did you happen to notice if any doors on the Saturn were open? You didn’t notice or they were not open

Karen McNamara: If I did, I don't remember.

Alex Clogston: OK. Did you happen to notice when you saw when you’re pulling out on Goose Lane from Goose Lane onto 112 and the pass SUV is already on 112 and passes you…

Karen McNamara: Yes that’s correct…

Alex Clogston: Or during any of this did you happen to notice any features of the driver? Like facial hair… hair?

Karen McNamara: Not at all.

Alex Clogston: Or style glasses?

Karen McNamara: No, it was dark.

Alex Clogston: Well, one question I have is does that look like the SUV you saw that night?

Karen McNamara: Yep. Absolutely

Alex Clogston: And these pictures were taken after the SUV was sold at auction in 2007, I believe?

Karen McNamara: Umm hmmm. Yep.

Karen McNamara: I've um and I have seen it since. I've I’ve uh seen that since, so yeah. That’s the car.

Alex Clogston: And did you happen to notice if the siren was on? By any chance when it went by you at all or when it was at the scene? Or was it just the lights?

Karen McNamara: I d… I don’t think so. I don’t think there was a siren.

Alex Clogston: The blue lights would be noticeable at 7:26 anyway.

Karen McNamara: Yeah

Alex Clogston: Even though that’s unreported. Um a siren would be unmissable. Um you noticed no lights on in the Saturn

Karen McNamara: Ummm hmmm

Alex Clogston: SUV had the blues on even at the scene?

Karen McNamara: Ummm hmmm.

Alex Clogston: And when you when when you saw the Saturn was it was it more up against the snowbank or was it more kind of in the road

Karen McNamara: All I can say is that the impression was said that it appears as though her car had just gone on to the wrong side of the street and was parked against the snowbank you know

Alex Clogston: So it was close to the snowbank?

Karen McNamara: Yeah. It wasn’t it wasn’t out in the road it was it seem like it was

Alex Clogston: Because Butch Atwood in all of his accounts, some of which I take issue with, that they weren’t actually his accounts. But in all of his accounts the vehicle was up the drivers side was up against the snowbank. Then there is an account of the Marottes, one of the Marottes, saying they saw the reverse lights come on amongst a couple of other things but they saw the reverse lights come on. And the other person I know that drove by that night who I had um emailed Tim and Lance who I won’t name right now because they are not here when she drove by the scene she said that the car was practically in the road. She said it was mainly it was it wasn't quite all the way in the road but it was nowhere near the snowbank and so that kind of pieces.

Karen McNamara: Hmmm.

Alex Clogston: I wonder whether or not what you saw was before or after Butch Atwood had gone by. So if you say it was up against the snowbank it kind of tells me it would be before Atwood would’ve been there. But if there was no one there at the scene I don’t really know how that all works out. Or maybe it was directly after.

John Smith: And I think what we have to bring up right now is that Karen, our credible witnesses is stating that the vehicle was parked parallel with the road only in the wrong direction in the wrong lane and the SUV was parked nose to nose with it, which could mean that the car couldn’t have been in the snow bank in the snow bank um because the SUV would have been

Alex Clogston: It was up against the snowbank. Was it parallel to the roadway the Saturn?

Karen McNamara: Yeh… yeah it just looked like it had gone and parked on the wrong side of the road.

Alex Clogston: So with the with... Was uh the Saturn being parallel to the road? Was the SUV also straight? Parallel?

Karen McNamara: Yes.

Alex Clogston: straight into it?

John Smith: So now you have that. You have Susan Champy telling us the same thing.

Alex Clogston: But also that the door was open...

John Smith: The door was open but the police report tells us that the car was into the trees stuck in the snow back

Alex Clogston: A lot of people don't take this for proof and its not hard proof but this is a photo, a screen cap of the WMUR um news footage least.

Karen McNamara: Ummm hmmm yeah.

Alex Clogston: It was taken three days later

John Smith: I think it’s Thursday

Alex Clogston: These are the stand trees somewhere in here it's it's disputed where she hit is somewhere here. To me there are no tracks whatsoever indicating that a car went through these snow Banks into those trees.

Karen McNamara: Yeah, right.

Alex Clogston: As you can tell it snow is melted there are depressions around the tree trunks and there are no tire tracks

Karen McNamara: And uh, and I don't think it was where the blue ribbon is I think it was further East.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Part 4

Alex Cogston: Further East going…

Karen McNamara: ummm hmmm

Alex Cogston: ...down the road?

Karen McNamara: Yeah, I do

Alex Cogston: Which it would kind of have to be to make room for the two vehicles to be nose-to-nose parallel to the road

John Smith: And and Tim Westman does confirm from that the ribbon was on the wrong trees it actually hit..

Alex Clogston: He said it’s the strand of three

John Smith: The strand of trees that he says that she hit the strand of three trees. She didn’t not hit any trees at the Weathered Barn corner.

Karen McNamara: It didn’t. It didn’t appear to me as if she had hit trees. Like I said you know my my impression was that it wasn’t even like really a bad accident. It just looked like she was on the wrong side of the road. So it didn’t

Alex Clogston: And did it kind of hard to remember probably but did it look like the SUV had struck were they close like they had struck or was there space between the two Vehicles do you remember that?

Karen McNamara: I don’t remember that.

Alex Clogston: Don’t know that?

Karen McNamara: Umm mmm

Tim Pileri: Do you recall seeing the windshield crack?

Karen McNamara: No. I did not see that. Umm mmm. I didn't

Alex Clogston: And being the driver side that would have been...\

Karen McNamara: Could have been...

Alex Clogston: ...the furthest the away

Karen McNamara: Yeah it could have been…I did not see that.

Alex Clogston: You didn't notice the airbags being deployed?

Karen McNamara: It was dark

Alex Clogston: Yeah. Um did you...

Karen McNamara: And everything was just lit up with blue light you know

Alex Clogston: Yeah. Which is kind of disorienting really

Karen McNamara: Ummm hmmm

Alex Clogston: Um did you happen to notice anyone sitting in the or around the school bus? The school bus Butch Atwood’s home?

Karen McNamara: No

Alex Clogston: You didn’t see any lights on in the bus? Or you can see

Karen McNamara: No

Alex Clogston: I’m not entirely familiar with how he parked.

John Smith: He’s got a couple different uh theories on that. Either he was parked parallel with the road next to his barn

Alex Clogston: Actually that would almost answer a question. Did you happen to notice and you may not remember, did you happen to notice if the bus was in his driveway at all?

Karen McNamara: Don’t.

Alex Clogston: Do you remember that it wasn’t? Because if it wasn’t there, he wouldn’t have gone by the scene yet.?

Karen McNamara: I don’t remember.

John Smith: Alright.

Karen McNamara: I wish someone had questioned me right then

Alex Clogston: Right. You never knew it was because if you had seen the bus that would have meant he'd already been to the scene and kind of put a couple more pieces into place.

Karen McNamara: Ummm hmmm

Lance Reenstierna: Did you look to the other houses ever in the area where there any lights on in the houses that were in the in the area?

Karen McNamara: Didn’t notice that.

Lance Reenstierna: OK.

Alex Clogston: Didn’t notice any lights on or people on at the White House on the corner or anything?

Karen McNamara: Didn’t notice that at all.

Alex Clogston: No one looking through the windows…?

Karen McNamara: Ummm hmmm. I didn’t notice.

Alex Clogston: Not something you really look for or did you drive kind of trying to negotiate a corner

John Smith: You just saw the two vehicles at the corner you didn’t see any people milling around the car?

Karen McNamara: I don’t believe I did. I did I don't think so my theory for a long time was that it wasn't a police officer that it was because someone had said to me the car was out of commission that night and I think it was it may have been the detective that had give me that information that that car was reportedly out of commission that night and so my

Alex Clogston: And so is this the detective for New Hampshire State Police?

Karen McNamara: No. I think um

Alex Clogston: Or are one of the ones the family had contacted

Karen McNamara: Yeah. Yes and they said that he could give me information because he wasn’t part of the official investigation

Alex Clogston: Umm hmmm

Karen McNamara: So he

Alex Clogston: Wasn’t tied to any agencies

Karen McNamara: Right. He had told me a few things but he did say that car was out of commission which made me think.

Alex Clogston: And did he say where he had heard that?

Karen McNamara: I thought he had heard from the police from the Haverhill PD that that car was out of commission so my thinking was and I thought this for many years that wherever the garage was that housed that car that may be a mechanic was driving it or somebody from the um wherever the car was out of commission

John Smith: Oh

Karen McNamara: go in the garage that was my theory.

Alex Clogston: Taking a joyride

Karen McNamara: Right. And that's why I would say to everybody check out who was driving 001.

Alex Clogston: And did anybody ever get back to you on that?

Karen McNamara: Um this…

Alex Clogston: Not that they would owe you know kind of answer.

Karen McNamara: The uh State police um I called them several years later. Actually I think my cousin who is a journalist called them so someone from the state police I talked to and faxed my cell phone records to him and um said got back to me and said that you know sometimes they just use different numbers that sometimes the number is assigned to the officer not the car so even if the report said 002 it meant 001 or whatever it was like not a big deal.

Alex Clogston: But we know on the police reports its eh H2 H1

John Smith: Ummm Hmmmm

Alex Clogston: 001 is the car designation. ****

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Part 5

John Smith: Right

Karen McNamara: But I was told no they looked into it and that’s you know. Not an issue.

Alex Clogston: And when I told you that I was interested this case you did tell me that you had a journalist cousin that was interested in too so she is actually the one that was had heard some of the that the the um the vehicle was out of commission?

Karen McNamara: No.

Alex Clogston: Oh she.

Karen McNamara: Well she just from me after the detective had said it to me.

Alex Clogston: Oh, you kind of relayed that to her?

Karen McNamara: Yeah. Yeah she was you know she was very interested.

Alex Clogston: I’d love to know to know who that detective was.

Karen McNamara: I think it may have been it was one for the family.

John Smith: Seems like it would have to be somebody from the NHLI which would maybe Healy

Karen McNamara: And he told me that um also that Butch Atwood had never been a police officer.

Alex Clogston: He hadn’t according to what?

John Smith: True.

Alex Clogston: John Healy later went on record I believe and saying that Butch Atwood knew more than what he was telling and he was scared of the people he had something on basically. I don’t know what he was saying. And again John Healy is…

Karen McNamara: I didn’t know that.

Alex Clogston: And again John Healy is I believe a 20 year retired New Hampshire State Police.

John Smith: Yeah. And he, when I spoke to him at first with the first case and tried to throw any of my theories no Rick Forcier he’s it and he's are main one we're not concentrating on anything else and I was just like

Alex Clogston: Is this before or after he said that Atwood knew more than?

John Smith: This is before. I met him - me and my girlfriend had dinner with him at the Eastgate Hotel and um that was his statement he was like this is what we are concentrating on there is nothing else.

John Smith: I was like how can you say that there's nothing else here you're not being a private investigator

Alex Clogston: There’s actually a Reddit topic about it his Crimewire interview which I haven’t watched personally

John Smith: I haven’t either

Alex Clogston: And one of the comments was how they kind of got the impression that Healy was holding back what he really thought was going on in the interview and I kind of wish he would say more or what he was actually thinking

John Smith: Mmmm hmmm

Alex Clogston: I don’t really have anything to add to that

Karen McNamara: Hmmmm

Alex Clogston: but I was just always very curious about that who actually

Karen McNamara: Well then that’s who had that’s who it was because he’s the one who told me he had gone to Florida investigated Butch Atwood and found out that he had never been a police officer and that I guess he sold the house right after

Alex Clogston: 18 months or somewhere in there or something

John Smith: Well I think it was further further uh further after that. But anyway, uh, I don’t know I don’t personally don’t think Butch did anything. But uh I just I don’t know what it is.

Alex Clogston: He? I can’t say that they didn't see anything. Those people on the stretch of the road.

John Smith: Right Right. And that’s what I feel. I feel the biggest reason Butch was so um evasive with his questions and changing his things was because he was either scared or he was told to.

Alex Clogston: And he did catch on to the fact that his account of one article said that according to police a witness saw her intoxicated at the scene the only witness to have seen Maura Murray that night was Butch Atwood. After that article was printed Butch Atwood went on record and said I never said she seemed intoxicated so that is the police putting words into Butch Atwood's mouth

Karen McNamara: Wow

John Smith: And John Healy putting the words into her brain that that couldn’t have happened because that cruiser was out of service.

Alex Clogston: And I wonder if

John Smith: If he’s the first person to say that, that’s bold. That’s

Alex Clogston: New Hampshire

Karen McNamara: Uh muh

Alex Clogston: New Hampshire State Police or if it came from John Healy from Haverhill.

John Smith: Haverhill.

Karen McNamara: The yeah uh the impression that I got was that oh that that's what he’d been told. That the car was out of commission and I don't think that he necessarily believed that.

Alex Clogston: That was just the official response basically.

Karen McNamara: Yeah. But so that led me to all these years thinking it was uh not all all these years but back then thinking it it must be the um some place at the garage or where ever that car was you know.

Alex Clogston: That’s a good idea actually. Is in anywhere in your research John were you ever able to determine whether or not the vehicle was in the garage the 001 SUV was if it was in a garage out of service at that time was that…

John Smith: No the only thing I can tell you is that that about three weeks later I was told that the vehicle was at Dick McKean’s shop who does their body work for repairs.

Alex Clogston: This is the SUV

John Smith: This is the SUV and that’s what I was told.

Alex Clogston: Now in our discussions previous Karen you told me that that years later you had actually had an accident on Route 112

Karen McNamara: That’s right

Alex Clogston: Um and your vehicle was towed by Dick McKean who owns Northland Towing his company um by Northland Towing which is owned and operating by Dick McKean which was actually supposed to be the tow company that was on call the night of Maura’s accident yet the police called Mike Lavoie to the scene and Lavoie uh McKean rather arrived at the scene and it was a bit of a suddlebut over who’s...

Karen McNamara: Ummm hmmm

Alex Clogston: ...who’s um call that was supposed to be and you mentioned that he told you that the the 002 sedan had been towed by him out of a snowbank earlier that same day can you expand on that all?

Karen McNamara: Yeah, when I um went to retrieve the things for my car after that was totaled

Alex Clogston: Do you remember how far after, do remember when this was how far after Maura’s accident years later how far this was?

Karen McNamara: I know it was on November 18.

Alex Clogston: That’s my sister’s birthday.

Karen McNamara: It was Jess’s birthday. Wow (Laughs)

John Smith: Small world

Karen McNamara: Zing. But I had called um you know and said okay I'll meet you guys you know for Jess's birthday and um you know leaving in about 10 minutes and then I have my accident so.

John Smith: And whereabouts did you have your accident?

Karen McNamara: Um...within an eigth of a mile from where Maura’s was.

Alex Clogston: Do you remember if it was East or West not that it really matters.

Karen McNamara: West… West

Alex Clogston: So it was it more towards the uh stagecoach store?

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Part 6

Karen McNamara: No no no. I’m sorry East. It was East.

Alex Clogston: Closer to Lincoln?

Karen McNamara: Yes I passed that spot and it was on a stretch where the river and the road goes close to the river and it was ice

John Smith: Icy?

Karen McNamara: Black ice and I flipped it. In any case my car got towed there and after I got out of the hospital I went there to get things out of my car and I saw a police SUV a brand new one in or newer one and um uh

Alex Clogston: Do you know when they got their new SUV I would like to kind of put a year on that.

John Smith: They sold the other one to...

Alex Clogston: 2007ish?

John Smith: ...Ed Obrien in 2007

Alex Clogston: So somewhere around 3 years after?

John Smith: It might be March I believe

Karen McNamara: It was less than 7 years ago I’d say. So And…

John Smith: So yeah I mean 2007 that’s that’s three and a half three years.

Karen McNamara: And so we we went uh I asked him I said oh I see one of the Haverhill um you know cruiser’s here. I said do you work on their cars ‘cause I’m thinkin’ something oh I found the place where you know maybe the car was out of commission

Alex Clogston: Yeah took the joy ride...

Karen McNamara: ...and he goes well sometimes I do, you know, um not always. And I said Do you happen to know um do you remember the night Maura Murray disappeared? And he was like “do I!” (Laughs) he said I remember that night really well and then he went on to tell me how earlier in the day um he had to pull he got a call to pull the sedan 002 because it had gone off the road and he had to you know pull it out. And he said it wasn't damaged. Um but then later that day um he heard on the scanner that a car had gone off by the off the road by the Weathered Barn and so he responded to it but when he got there he found out that the police had called somebody else. And it wasn't their turn in rotation he was a little ticked off that they called him for a freebie to get pulled out but they didn't call him for you know towing a car. Um hmmm.

Alex Clogston: That paying job. Did he have any details about that accident - what time uh afternoon that accident happened?

Karen McNamara: Uh no. I don't remember that now. If he had said to me when he just said that afternoon and he had…

Alex Clogston: And he never told you who was driving the 002 sedan that day or did he...?

Karen McNamara: I don't believe that he did. I don’t I don’t think he did tell me that.

Alex Clogston: And John...

Karen McNamara: But I was really surprised um but cuz I'm thinking that hmmm cuz the car all 02 is what they said arrived at the scene first and and if it had been damaged but he said it hadn't been damaged it was it was fine car

Alex Clogston: And according to the weather reports it was the road conditions were as dry and not slippery whatsoever that day

John Smith: Yeah, according to the accident report the roads were dry. According to Tim Westman, when Tim and I interviewed him, um, last October, Tims words were the roads were as dry as a summer day. Those I that's his exact quote from that evening.

Alex Clogston: So there is no reason that a sedan should be sliding off the road and you had I’ve heard mentioned before I forget where I heard it that that accident happened somewhere around 4:30 in the afternoon. Do you do you know i do you have any more details on that?

John Smith: The only thing I can tell you is that we were told by a local that they heard it on the scanner that got the call that that um the 002 had slid off the road it was not an accident slid off the road it was at in a parking lot or near a parking lot on on Route 10 that's all I know and I heard that it was someplace close to the Grafton County Sheriff’s Department. But I'm not sure exactly where. Uh and that…

Alex Clogston: And it wouldn’t be in the dispatch record because the dispatch record doesn’t start until 6PM, if that happened at 4:30.

John Smith: Right right and these guys when they when the wrecker showed up or no uh supposedly this is now this is local rumor but whoever they said that Williams was driving that cruiser Smith was in the SUV and Smith came and put Williams into the SUV and sent him on his way. That's how Williams ended up in the SUV that day was what we’ve been told. Um and the reason that they put him in the SUV and sent him was because he had been drinking and is very well known fact that all around town that Jeff Williams has an alcohol issue. Very big alcohol issue. And a very big anger issue as well. He’s not he can be very volitile. Um and that’s from a bunch of locals.

Karen McNamara: When I thought that it was somebody from the garage or something that may have taken that car and I had no idea who the garage is or who that might be where it was out of commission um that was one thing that I really told anybody and everybody check out who was driving 001. But then when I realized that the police weren't interested in finding out about 001 and that it could have been the police reports are different than what I saw I started to get be very afraid you know.

Alex Clogston: Throws up a red flag and just being an observer.

Karen McNamara: Very very afraid. And in fact you know I had said this to many people if I ever have a police car try to stop me on 112. I'm not stopping I'm gunna keep going ‘til (Laughs) I get some place where I know I'm safe. But it made me feel very unsafe and then it made me feel or I started to feel like I might not wanna attach my name to being a witness to this because then I would be in jeopardy. And working in Woodsville and Haverhill I didn't I didn't like that feeling

Alex Clogston: Yeah potential for uh some pretty serious backlash.

John Smith: Yeah.

Karen McNamara: That’s what I thought. And I also had heard a lot of um you know local people talking about a cover up.

Alex Clogston: And to me, uh, like I said, its not just a case of you trying to insert yourself into the case. We have and email you sent of April 2005. And the family can verify who you are I know there's going to be a large segment of the Internet community that’s like well I can say my grandmother was Witness A and but...

John Smith: Umm hmmm

Alex Clogston: ...you have been verified and I... I have believed your account right from day one. Uh I just want to…

John Smith: I think I can add in here now that uh the New Hampshire State Police the New Hampshire State Police Cold Case unit and the FBI are aware of who Karen McNamara is um and I have it on good authority that one person at least in authority has said that Karen is a credible witness and if they feel that Karen is a credible witness and they believe what she has to say then how can they not believe and deny her the fact that she saw SUV number 001 the Haverhill police cruiser. So how can they play that I say that two card that two sided card. If they are calling her a credible Witness but yet they are saying no well you didn’t see what you thought you saw. She’s credible. Susan Champy is credible. Both their stories match unless they’ve been sitting in the cafe down in the street making up their notes to get this all perfect don't think so um in the accident report says it all I mean you know they say one thing where the car was. They say the car was in the snowbank gone hit the tree and it was lodged in the snowbank. No. There’s no tire tracks going through the snow and there is nothing resembling tire tracks in the snow bank, you showed that just a second ago.

Alex Clogston: Well, it not hard and fast proof but certainly to me you would think there would be evidence of a vehicle there would be tracks going through the snow there is nothing resembling

John Smith: Umm hmmm

Alex Clogston: You can see tracks of a vehicle kind of pulling up along the way it's been described…

John Smith: Yeah

Alex Clogston: ...parallel to the roadway but I don't see a vehicle traveling through the trees and we’ve gone on and on online on the podcast comments and uh your blog about what may be the the fud that the Western could have been and in my mind with a couple videos comparing some Saturn airbags going off and stuff the windshield breaking all that was definitely not for my head. To me definitely clearly from the…

John Smith: Airbag

Alex Clogston: ...airbag. I don't know if the thud was from another vehicle impacting her vehicle it doesn't sound like from what you saw she impacted anything if she was up against the snowbank there would be no thud made by any of that.

John Smith: Right. Right.

Alex Clogston: I mean that’s all speculation

Karen McNamara: Its really scary to think about

Alex Clogston: But it doesn’t add up to the official story

John Smith: Official story

Alex Clogston: That seems like the furthest the furthest truth away. So I know the community itself has a lot of questions a couple of which we tried to address one of which was your wording in your initial email how you never said anything about the SUV it was police car car car car police car.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Part 7

Karen McNamara: Oh (Laughs)

Alex Clogston: We've established that's kind of just the way you refer to and you know

Karen McNamara: I had several SUV’s myself. I drive one now and I never called the SUV I call it the car. I do remember when they said to me do you recall if that 001 was a sedan or an SUV and I’m like yeah it’s an SUV. It was like…

Alex Clogston: And this is the police

Karen McNamara: No. The family. When they when they when I met It with them that time I was like no it was an SUV. But um, it, it didn't seem significant to me.

John Smith: Right

Karen McNamara: I I did not have all the information in the bigger picture was just yeat that’s what I saw.

Alex Clogston: And some people will just never believe it because it

Karen McNamara: Because I said car 001?

Alex Clogston: Well, no the main is because it goes against the official timeline of everything...

Karen McNamara: Oh wow

Alex Clogston: ...and it just doesn’t quite add up in people’s eyes. There there is no way we will 100% answer everyone’s questions um try to address the community

Karen McNamara: I I questioned it myself and I thought how can it say this and this is what I experienced. And and I try to make it fit I tried to make it make sense and it didn't it just doesn't you know.

Alex Clogston: And people take issue with that.

Karen McNamara: And that's when I started feeling scared you realize that for a long time I have no idea if any of this was going on when you told me that...

Alex Clogston: Oh I told you...

Karen McNamara: I was Witness A I was like what? I didn't even know what you were talking about

Alex Clogston: I actually have the initial you said something along the lines I can't believe what I saw that night was public

Karen McNamara: Yeah. I didn't know that.

Alex Clogston: Yeah. You actually wrote OMG I had no idea the public knew about what I saw. Sorry.

Karen McNamara: I didn’t

Alex Clogston: How’s that for interjecting yourself into the case.

Karen McNamara: (Laughs) Yeah. Uh I was uh...

Alex Clogston: Aye…

Karen McNamara: …really surprised and I contacted my cousin she says don’t talk to anybody

Alex Clogston: And have you stayed in contact with the uh Murray Family at all over the years?

Karen McNamara: Helena and I you know, chat sometimes on line.

Alex Clogston: And have you ever talked to Fred Murray at all or just just…

Karen McNamara: I did once. Way in the beginning and no um you know Helena had said that's not a good idea cuz he's so emotional

Alex Clogston: And when so when um when you met with the family in this was reported who were which member of the family we actually meeting with?

Karen McNamara: Helena.

Alex Clogston: That was Helena?

Karen McNamara: Ummm hmmm. Yeah.

Tim Pilleri: Do you know Susan Champy?

Karen McNamara: No. It was um you know I don't know how many years later I came around that corner and there was a car that was in an accident right there into the snow bank in stuck really badly and I stopped to help the guy but nobody from any of the houses around came out you

Alex Clogston: Oh yeah.

Karen McNamara: I'm just thinking like you said well well you know Maura was there didn't the Neighbors come out and look and do anything?

Alex Clogston: You’d think they might want to why would they get even more worried to get involved?

Karen McNamara: But but then somebody did say that un you know at least once a year there is an accident there on that corner. But that um. Yeah, it really gave me the creeps that this guy was like stuck in that snowbank I got out and I had to shovel trying to help him we couldn't shovel it out so I gave her a ride to the store.

Alex Clogston: And was he heading East do you know, that guy?

Karen McNamara: I think he was heading East.

Alex Clogston: Because going around the corner having driven it many times if you actually were to uh lose control of the vehicle and slide even though again it was a dry day you would not end up the way her car ended up.

John Smith: No.

Alex Clogston: You’d end up much more closer to the actual apex of the corner you know what I mean kind of more West you can just go more straight than down the street and turn around.

Karen McNamara: Well, you you know. And I I hesitate to put myself out there like this too. You know there was many times I’d drive by and I’d be asking like how did that happen how did she end up with her car there? and one time and it wasn't you know a particularly slippery night and it was past that point on 112 I was thinking how did that happen? And my car spun around and I was facing in the wrong direction on the side of the road just like hers would have been I said oh that's how it happens (Laughs) you know. That that can happen.

John Smith: And see in your instance with a slippery road yes that makes sense. But in Maura’s case..

Alex Clogston: And not only according to the weather reports was it dry, but according to Cecil Smith's description of the accident in the report the road conditions were dry and not slippery.

John Smith: And in Tim Westman’s Karen McNamara: I don’t remember being particularly slippery that night. But I also know that the night that I had my accident and totalled my car it was like in the 50’s that day. And it was perfectly dry and most of it was not slippery it was just uh a certain section were the ice was.

John Smith: Well especially that road down there by the river it freezes up...

Karen McNamara: Umm hmmm

John Smith: ...glazes over a little bit quicker than

Karen McNamara: But (Laughs) but like I said the impression I had

Alex Clogston: Condition normal surface condition dry. According to his traffic report.

Karen McNamara: The impression I had was that she was going this way and she just went on the wrong side of the road. That’s what it looked like.

Alex Clogston: So I don’t really know what questions we can ask to uh confirm anything else for anybody.

John Smith: Well, I I think what I would like to my part that I would just like to point out because we have Karen here with us is that is is just to give people a little bit better idea again of how she could have seen the cruiser twice and if you're on Swiftwater Road in Goose Lane off of Swiftwater road is a road called Cemetery Road.

Karen McNamara: Umm hmmm

John Smith: And Cemetery Road cuts off to the left and comes out on Route 112 further West uh pa further West of the uh Stage Stop store

Alex Clogston: It looks like a Y

John Smith: Yeah, looking at a Y. And so once he passed her there he actually went down Cemetery Road.

Karen McNamara: Which is paved

John Smith: Which is where he was going and then she got to route 112 so that when she pulled onto 112 he had come out further west and had to pass her again.

Tim Pilleri: How fast would he have had to have been going to pass you twice?

Karen McNamara: Faster than me, but I don't know. No I didn't. Faster than me that's all I can say and I was not in a hurry to be behind a police car with those lights on.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (4 children)

Part 8

John Smith: Right. You were already on 112 when he passed you the second time? Had you turned on towards, just barely. So that would be just right.

Karen McNamara: Just just pulling out onto it at the stop sign. And that's another thing that made me think like oh whatever it is doesn't know where they're going you it can’t o be a police officer he would know where he was going that's what I thought was.

John Smith: And I I think. Sorry. Perfect time to add this in is uh Cecil Smith’s exact words on Wednesday morning to the family was um “I got lost on the way because I'm not familiar with the area.” Now Cecil Smith's father lives on Bunga Road which is on Swiftwater ro or on uh route 112 right across right across the corner from the Stage Stop store.

Alex Clogston: Right around the corner

John Smith: So I find it pretty hard that a police officer in his own town with a father who lives only two and a half miles from the accident scene doesn't know where he is and and uh got lost.

Karen McNamara: So you’re thinking that he was saying that in response to the fact that a police car passed me twice?

John Smith: I think he was saying that in response to the fact that you were passed by an SUV and he they were trying to cover their tracks. Because then that makes sense why it took him 17 minutes to get to the scene from wherever he was it took 17 minutes to respond so if it took this is this is this is the sedan. So if it took the sedan 17 minutes to respond.

Karen McNamara: Oh OK Yeah.

John Smith: I mean you’re seeing the SUV before that. So what is this SUV looking for? I mean we know what you saw you know it’s obvious what you saw and and that’s it right there. And and for him to get lost and go down Cemetery Road I don't think he was lost. I think he was looking for I think he was on a mission he was looking for somebody.

Karen McNamara: Ses that’s so strange. Now have they ever had a sedan that said 001 on it?

John Smith: No. Not like that.

Karen McNamara: (Laughs) It’s like

Alex Clogston: Maybe they did but not at the time

Karen McNamara: How?

John Smith: I think they had 3 three Cruisers at that point in time there was three cruisers. And there was 001 the SUV 002 was one sedan then there was 003.

Alex Clogston: And when they sell them they remove the lights and all the decals

John Smith: Yeah just well what you see right there is the way it was sold to

Alex Clogston: You can you can see that even the decals were taken right off there’s nothing on the sides

Karen McNamara: I remember seeing that one day on the way to work it was so creepy.

[–]niksichm 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Great job HunterPense! I just want to add that before the interview starts, Tim and Lance talk about reconstructing the drive along with Alex and Karen. Using two cars, they find it was within 90 seconds between the first and second pass. It would be great if someone could corroborate that with Karen. It's important because if you assume Karen was driving 40 to 45 mph, you can figure out the distance she could have traveled in those 90 seconds, and then find where the first pass occurred. Knowing where the first pass occurred, you can figure out the speed the SUV was traveling in order to pass her once on Goose Lane Road, then again at the intersection of French Pond Rd and 112, within 90 seconds. Knowing the approximate speed the SUV was traveling can help shed some light on a couple of theories that are out there.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Good stuff, as always. Is Pt7 out of order?

[–]Lanaya77 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ive wondered.. if maybe ms. K. McNamara was confused by what she saw. Like did she see what she claims, or did she see somthing else; like TC's truck nose to nose but she thought it was 001 becuase 001 just passed her. (?)

[–]MrRealHuman 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How do we know this person really knew them? Is this the same McNamara who passed away?

Edit. Nvm. I'm new to the case, but if I were an investigator I wouldn't take this too seriously myself. This is years later. This lady wants to help. She'll say whatever she thinks will help.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Some commentary on Witness A math

Q's from /u/bobboblaw46

Do we know for sure that the first police car showed up IMMEDIATELY after FW got off the phone?

No, but we have better reason to believe this is possible than a 7:35 arrival - but that rests solely on Whitewash's interview.

the correct time she received a 911 call on the log, right?

Some delay yes - but not much. 30 seconds maybe. However, there could have been some delay between the time the accident took place and when they made their call. Maybe 2 minutes.

Admittedly that makes Butch's arrival earlier than the call by the Westmans. Meantime some people have stated they think Butch would have arrived after the call because he is not mentioned by the Westmans. However - a lack of mention isn't confirmation that he was not there or hadn't passed - purpose of 911 call is to identify 911 caller and nature of emergency and describe individual involved in incident. Mentioning Butch would be extraneous - but then again - Butch did mention extraneous information in his call. This is hypothetical at best - however if one purpose of our discussion is to discover a rational explanation for most of the witness accounts - the idea might be considered. Having said all of that I fully acknowledge that there is an interview with the Westmans that contradict this idea:

From: https://www.reddit.com/r/MauraMurrayEvidence/comments/8jj1dd/another_westman_interview/

When I asked the Westman’s about the timeline between that point and when the police arrived, they said that it took about 15 minutes for the police to arrive after the bus left.

Overall - I am leaning towards the idea that only Cecil arrived - and only he arrived at 7:45.

Because some of Witness A's statements contradict the idea that there were two vehicles mistaken for 1:

She said she saw 001. (Well if she saw car 001 that would mean that Cecil was not driving 001, but he said he was.)

Most importantly Witness A said that she saw flashing blue & red lights at the accident site (Link below). This could not be true for the hypothetical first vehicle - as the Westmans would have said that they saw two LE vehicles arrive - and further it would leave no room for them to mistake the first vehicle as Cecil Smith, when in fact it was not Cecil Smith.

From: https://www.reddit.com/r/MauraMurrayEvidence/comments/7n7046/transcript_of_witness_a_interview/drzjpse/

Alex Clogston: And you also said that when you saw the vehicle nose-to-nose the blue lights were still on... Karen McNamara: Umm hmmm.

Now on the other hand - with regard to other Witness A statements:

1. Her timeline would be consistent with her departure time of 7:10-7:15 and speed of just under 25 MPH per what Art said (Here: https://imgur.com/MhtXJyd). He said that it took "14 minutes to the accident scene" - which comes out to 24.8607 MPH. (14minutes/60minutes in hour)=.2333 of an hour, 5.8 miles/.2333 of an hour = 24.8607 MPH. 7:10-7:15 (start time)+:14 (Drive Time) = 7:24-7:29 (Arrival Time), of which 7:29 would be within a minute of when after Faith Westman got off the phone.

Map from Cottage Hospital to accident site: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/56+Goose+Ln,+Bath,+NH+03740/44.1289559,-71.9503242/@44.1396136,-71.9826462,15z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m9!4m8!1m5!1m1!1s0x4cb4f549fb36fbb5:0x329b8dab92dddbfc!2m2!1d-71.9982857!2d44.1444873!1m0!3e0

2. Relative driving speeds, and the requirements of her own account would have the vehicle she said she saw going 118.18% faster than her. The distance between first and second pass was 3.3 miles for Karen, 3.9 for Cecil Smith. 3.9/3.3 = 1.1818. Therefore the LE vehicle would have been going 29.3804 MPH (24.8607*1.1818 = 29.3804) on average, with the Reds & Blues flashing.

3. This vehicle would have arrived at the scene, at most, a minute before Witness A. So we have her arriving, at latest, at the same time Cecil Smith was dispatched (7:29) - and at earliest (7:24), which would put the other LE there between 7:23 and 7:28. Both vehicles would have started the journey from Cottage Hospital at around 7:15, and this would have the vehicle she said she saw flashing the reds and blues without having been dispatched to Haverhill.

4. There was however the Medical Emergency at Littleton that came in at 7:17 (Call Number 4751) (PDF Pages 26 & 27 here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByBfe6nS9-d4bXFhZnhkNmxTMTA/view) and (PDF Page 1 & 2 here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7_atAFvowRhYzlmMm9OaEZwX28/view)

Of course Littleton is not Haverhill's jurisdiction and the vehicle that Witness A said she saw was not heading to Littleton, but instead towards the accident site. So it can't be reasonably stated that it was heading towards Littleton responding to that dispatch call.

5. Witness A and the vehicle that she said she saw drove on the same road for 1.3 miles of the trip from first pass to Sawyer Hill Road. Map: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/56+Goose+Ln,+Bath,+NH+03740/44.1460853,-71.9741893/@44.1393672,-71.9773676,15z/data=!4m9!4m8!1m5!1m1!1s0x4cb4f549fb36fbb5:0x329b8dab92dddbfc!2m2!1d-71.9982857!2d44.1444873!1m0!3e0

6. Witness A would make it to Beaver Pond going reasonable speeds the whole way. Its a 16.4 mile drive. (Map: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Cottage+Hospital,+Haverhill,+NH/Beaver+Pond,+Woodstock,+NH/@44.1110059,-71.9814257,12z/data=!4m19!4m18!1m10!1m1!1s0x4cb4f53b474d9be5:0xdb5d72317d82369c!2m2!1d-72.023245!2d44.1354006!3m4!1m2!1d-71.9877162!2d44.1459382!3s0x4cb4f54a581cfe87:0xe3dd053eff5ab3cd!1m5!1m1!1s0x4cb485cd1b41e615:0x64261520024edd73!2m2!1d-71.7933106!2d44.0425234!3e0?hl=en&authuser=0 )

7. Going 24.8607 MPH for 16.4 miles would take .6732 of an hour, or 40.39 minutes. So she would be at Beaver Pond at 7:10-7:15+:40 at 7:50-7:55. Her cell phone record has her arriving at 7:52.

8. What we are left with are unexplained actions by the vehicle she said she saw:
A. (slow speed with reds & blues)
B. (a vehicle heading towards an accident site for an accident that had not taken place yet)
C. (an extremely early arrival time)
D. (an account that could only amount to confusion for the Westmans HAD THE LIGHTS OF VEHICLE 1 NOT BEEN FLASHING) - and that account of events by the Westmans is contradicted by another one that says 15 minutes passed until Law Enforcement arrived. Both accounts of when LE arrived are attributed as having come from the Westmans.