Evidence That A Vehicle Arrived and Left Accident Scene Before Cecil Smith Arrived

BonquosGhost · 2017-11-04T14:42:30+00:00

THIS IS EXACTLY DEAD ON! None of this can be refuted by anyone. Logic and truth win over the obvious lies being doled out and repeated by the numerous "diversionists" on the various subs. They have multiplied since the show aired to try to hit home their narrative. But their narrative is a complete lie. Cecil tho will never have to worry about lying on the stand about this, because guaranteed, this case will never make it to the stand......

RetroMetal · 2017-11-14T20:52:56+00:00

In my reading of all this "stuff" surrounding this case and this particular area of time it seems to ME that lots of people get way down "in the weeds" about quite a few things that were said, or supposedly said. Take, "where's the girl" for example. Isn't it possible, and more likely probable that Smith might have asked "where is the driver (or say... where is the person involved with this wreck?)? And when asked some time AFTER it was known that it was a female in the car the Westman's simply unconsciously replaced whatever words Smith actually said with, "where's the girl"?

This happens again with the description of "flurry of activity" near the trunk and people claiming that she was gathering items. Couldn't that have possibly been Maura being attacked or fighting off an attack? Then maybe running down the street, which could also explain the reason the dog lost her scent down the road.

Also, with all of these witnesses who are calling 911 and NOT seeing when and why Maura disappeared, isn't it probably and likely that the people who were observing this from inside homes a fair distance away were also looking out of windows at night time while it's dark outside and with room lighting on inside the rooms they are in? Have you ever done this? Internal lighting causes looking at a window when it's dark outside, to reflect the lit room, making it extremely hard to actually see outside. This would also affect Butch Atwood, IF he was inside his bus doing paperwork he would almost certainly have the dome light inside the bus on... so he's not trying to fill out paperwork in the dark... Also, IF these people who are calling 911 are A) being told by Butch Atwood that he's spoken to the driver of the car and she requested that he not call the police and she didn't look injured, and B) no real reason to believe there is anyone hurt at the scene, especially since it was simply a car spinning out, that those people on the phone, inside, and "looking at the scene"... how much real attention do you suppose those people are REALLY putting towards watching every little thing? I know personally if I were to be in that situation I probably would look out the window for a moment to see that something had actually occurred and probably turned my attention elsewhere.

igraduated · 2017-11-30T07:42:38+00:00

OLD POST PART 8

Fourth - Cecil Smith has made no statement claiming he arrived earlier than reflected on his police report or the Grafton County Police Logs

Fifth - Cecil Smith reached Butch Atwood's Bus between 7:51 and 7:53, a time consistent with Cecil Smith having a brief conversation with the Westmans and driving up the road, starting at 7:46. The 7:51 - 7:53 time and brief discussion is consistent with the 7:54 Be on the lookout call - and the statement Butch Atwood made that it took 8 to 9 minutes after he was off the phone with Hanover for Smith to arrive. It is also consistent with Dick Guys account.

Sixth - Clearly, Cecil Smith's primary mission was to find the driver quickly. The most efficient way to do so is to immediately ask the witnesses if they knew where the driver was. You don't check the side oft he road when the driver could simply be at the Atwood residence. You check the side of the road after the witnesses say they don't know where she is. This is consistent with Cecil Smith stating that he had a brief 1 - 2 minute conversation with Butch Atwood. Conversely - If you have Cecil Smith arrive at 7:35 - you have him taking 16 - 18 minutes to make initial contact with the witnesses who called - and this implies that he was in no rush to locate her - yet that contradicts the implication of his brief conversation with Butch Atwood. And if he was not in a rush to find the driver - why would he be so flustered as to forget his habit of calling in the accident.

am I right in saying that "where's the girl?" was something the Westmans only relayed onto Whitewash?

Whitewash has not stated that she was told this. It was no surprise when I saw that Cold mentioned this fact, however. This idea predates James Renner and the podcast guys. Now - all of the sources, except the quote from Cold, could be explained away. However, when you put all of the facts together, it is clear that the Cecil Smith asked "where's the girl" when he arrived at the Westmans door.

Source #1 - http://www.caledonianrecord.com/news/five-years-later-maura-murray-still-missing-after-driving-to/article_f425137c-9de9-57d2-9b5a-ecd6e80c2834.html

Feb 9, 2009

"Murray's family said Smith told them he thought the driver of the Saturn was Murray's father, to whom the car was registered. Mysterious to them, though, is why Smith asked neighbors, the night of the crash, 'Where is the girl?' "

The word neighbors is plural here - and the record only shows Cecil Smith talking to the Westmans and Butch Atwood. But it doesn't specifically say the Westmans.

Source #2 - https://www.reddit.com/r/MauraMurrayEvidence/comments/4yq4rq/newspaper_articles/d7kidtm/?st=j9n8ufew&sh=1ede3eff

"Sgt. Smith then drove the 200 yards east to Butch Atwood's home, and found Atwood sitting in his bus. Sgt. Smith knocked on the bus window. 'He asked where the girl was,' Atwood recalled and told the officer he hadn't seen anyone since leaving Maura's vehicle."

From this, we know that Cecil Smith asked at least one neighbor - the Atwoods - "where's the girl?".

Source #3: I have some private emails in my possession - from other researchers - October 2008 to 2009 or so that, state as fact: "Smith went up to Atwood and asked 'Where is the Girl?' "

This, of course, predates the article above.

7:35 Cecil’s accident report states he arrived on scene at 7:35.

Unfortunately, that is not the case.

We know Cecil Smith had to arrive AFTER 7:43PM, because Cecil Smith could not have asked the Westmans "Where is the Girl?" until AFTER 7:43PM.

It was only until after 7:43 PM that dispatcher Rhonda Marsh was notified (by Hanover dispatch) that a woman was involved in the accident. So, 7:43PM is the earliest moment that dispatcher Rhonda March could have informed Cecil Smith that a woman was involved in the accident.

It was at 7:43 when her call ended with Hanover dispatch, and Hanover dispatch informed Rhonda Marsh that a woman was involved in the accident.

The fact is clear that Faith Westman, the individual that called 911, told dispatcher Rhonda Marsh that she saw a man smoking a cigarette. This newspaper article by Maribeth Conway reiterates the fact that Faith Westman thought it was a man and Tim Westman thought it was a woman:

From: https://www.reddit.com/r/MauraMurrayEvidence/comments/4yq4rq/newspaper_articles/d7ki910/?st=j9xvyd74&sh=159544bf

"In a later interview with Maura's father, Fred Murray, the Westmans could not agree on an exact description of the person in the black Saturn. Faith Westman believed she had seen a man with a cigarette, while Tim Westman believed it was a woman at the scene on her cell phone and that the red light from the phone looked like the tip of a cigarette."

"An investigator who later interviewed the Westmans confirmed that the couple did not fully agree on a description."

Note that Faith Westman made the call - and you can see that in the Grafton county Sheriff's logs for yourself, along with the fact that a man smoking a cigarette was mentioned in the narrative.

Prior to 7:43PM, Cecil Smith would have been looking for a MAN. This is reflected in Rhonda Marsh's 7:40PM narrative of her call with the Westmans.

Therefore, the earliest Cecil Smith could have been at the scene is 7:43PM. Furthermore, in Cecil Smith's report that you reference, Cecil Smith said he was DISPATCHED at 7:35PM, and ARRIVED at 7:45PM.

The document is here: https://static.wixstatic.com/media/ecfcd6_7209d1c7e99c45b69f94b236e6b3c42b~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_876,h_329,al_c,lg_1/ecfcd6_7209d1c7e99c45b69f94b236e6b3c42b~mv2.png

The dispatch logs have Cecil Smith ARRIVING at 7:46:20PM.

Based on the facts reflected in both the Grafton County Sheriff logs and Cecil Smith's own report, there is no reason to doubt that Cecil Smith arrived at the accident site at 7:46:20 PM.

We certainly know the latest Witness A could have been at the accident scene is 7:39PM. Erin has a nice chart showing this on an earlier post. Therefore, we also know it was impossible for Witness A to have been there before Cecil Smith arrived, at earliest 7:43PM.

Add the fact that the Westmans have said that they hung up the phone with dispatcher Rhonda Marsh when they perceived an officer arrived, and the fact that her phone call must have finished before 7:40 PM when the narrative was entered into the dispatch system by Rhonda Marsh, it is crystal clear that another vehicle was there and left the scene before Cecil Smith arrived.

Folks I've tested this time line six ways from Sunday. I'm fairly certain there was another vehicle there before Cecil Smith arrived. Yet no one is talking about this important fact.

[deleted] · 2017-11-30T07:34:56+00:00

OLD POST part 1

I need to revise the timeline for travel down the street from 3 minutes to 30 seconds to 1 minute, based on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsJ7cb_73n4&feature=youtu.be

Needs to be revised to show that Faith Westman's call ended at 17:36, when she took a call from Grafton.

Complicated post that shows another officer vehicle was at the scene before Cecil Smith arrived. That vehicle could have been any type of car the Westmans could have mistaken for an officer. It was dark out there Both the Westmans and Witness A saw this vehicle.

An analysis of the records tell me this was NOT Cecil Smith. The problem lies in the fact that Cecil Smith claimed to be in the 001 and Witness A says she saw the 001, but could not have been at the site as late as 7:46:20, the time the logs show his arrival.

I make no judgments here, except that either Cecil Smith or Witness A is incorrect. The important thing is to identify the other driver.

In this post, I attempt, among other things, to discover when Butch Atwood's call to the Hanover dispatcher started. I also attempt to reconcile Cecil Smith's times with Butch Atwood and Dick Guy's.

I also point out that the evidence could indicate that it is possible that that another individual arrived at the scene of the accident 10 - 15 minutes before Cecil Smith arrived, and that the Westmans mistakenly believed that this individual was Cecil Smith.

The Grafton County dispatch logs show that Butch Atwood's call to the Hanover dispatcher ended before 19:43. This is the time that the call from the Hanover dispatcher to Grafton County dispatcher Rhonda Marsh started. However, we don't know how long Butch Atwood was on the phone with the Hanover dispatcher. Hanover has its own dispatchers and log system. The Hanover logs have never been acquired under the FOIA. I hope to gain more reasonable information about the Hanover logs as a result of exploring the evidence and attempting to recalculate the times involved.

If the reader finds the times assumed to be reasonable, and provide a tie in to other witness statements, one can only conclude that Cecil Smith's arrival time was correctly recorded in the Grafton County logs - and that Cecil Smith called in his arrival to the dispatcher when he arrived at the scene.

Conversely, if one believes that Cecil Smith arrived before the time indicated in the log, one can attempt to criticize the assumptions made here. But if you do, I strongly suggest that you present a set of assumptions that show how Cecil Smith's early arrival could make sense in the context of the additional evidence, as I have done here. Otherwise, don't waste anyone's time rebutting with mere suppositions. If you cannot cohesively draw up a set of assumptions and make a case for Cecil Smith's early arrival, then there is no point in pretending that it could be true.

I think the earliest Butch Atwood's conversation with the Hanover dispatcher could have started is at about 19:39. (See below for the assumptions made to calculate when I think he was able to make the call to the Hanover dispatcher. These assumptions are based upon the approximate time we know Butch Atwood was at the accident site.)

I believe that Butch Atwood was on the phone with the Hanover dispatcher for as long as 4 minutes.

Faith Westman's call with dispatcher Rhonda March, lasted 8 minutes at most. It could have been as short as 2 minutes, 31 seconds. The length of time calculated for this call depends upon what time we assume the call ended: 19:26:31 or 19:35. For the sake of argument, I consider both times.

The unredacted version of the Haverhill call logs show Rhonda Marsh entering the phone call from Faith Westman into the system at 19:35, which is the basis for supposing it was an 8 minute phone call. A copy is here:. This document was formerly up at mauramurraymissing.com.

[deleted] · 2017-11-30T07:38:30+00:00

OLD POST PART 2

However, there is evidence that the call might have ended at 19:29:31 when Rhonda Marsh dispatched Cecil Smith at 19:29:31. That is to say, if we assume that Rhonda Marsh was only able to dispatch Cecil Smith after her conversation with Faith Westman ended.

Note: Faith Westman's account puts an officer (conservatively) at the scene at 19:35 (Or before 19:40, see [1] below), if we accept 19:35 as the time the call between Faith Westman and dispatcher Rhonda Marsh ended. It could be as early as 19:29:31 if, instead, we assume that the call between Faith Westman and the dispatcher ended immediately before Cecil Smith was dispatched. In any case, it means Butch Atwood left the scene either before 19:29:31 or before 19:35, based on that evidence alone. But when we take into consideration that Faith Westman has said that Butch Atwood was at the accident scene within 1-2 minutes of her call, and that Butch Atwood remained at the scene for an additional 1-2 minutes, it is clear that he left the scene of the accident at about 19:31 (19:27+2+2=19:31).

Of course, both assumptions (that the phone call ended at 19:29:31 or 19:35) presume that Faith Westman recalled correctly that: Butch Atwood both arrived and departed the accident scene during her phone call with dispatcher Rhonda Marsh. The important statement taken from Faith Westman is linked here: "See Smith nose to nose hangs up with 911.". This statement is somewhat reinforced by Sam Ledyard's account of his interview with the Westmans here - quoted at [2] below.

These times are important because Faith Westman said, in her interview with Whitewash, that Butch Atwood arrived after Faith Westman was on the phone with dispatcher Rhonda Marsh -- and that Atwood left the scene before Faith Westman's call to dispatcher Rhonda Marsh ended. This is mentioned here.

Rhonda Marsh's dispatcher notes for Faith Westman's call doesn't mention the fact that Faith Westman saw Butch Atwood arrive and leave. However, Faith Westman has stated that she saw Butch Atwood arrive and depart from the scene here. However, the difference between linked newspaper quote and Whitewash's interview with Faith Westman, is that the newspaper does not provide any information about when Faith Westman saw Butch Atwood arrive and depart in relation to her phone call to the dispatcher Rhonda Marsh. On the other hand, these newspaper quotes support the veracity of the interview.

Based upon Faith Westman's statement to Whitewash that "Atwood arrives with 1-2 min per Faith," it is reasonable to conclude that Butch Atwood arrived at the accident site between 19:28 and 19:29. (I previously erroneously stated that I believed that Butch Atwood wasn't there until after 19:29:31.)

Based upon Faith Westman's statement to Whitewash that "Atwood is there 1-2 mines tops Faith says." it is reasonable to conclude that that Butch Atwood had left the accident scene at about 19:31.

Next, I attempt to reconcile Butch Atwood's time to that of Cecil Smith. If this can be accomplished, we will have a basis to approximate when various events took place. The key point in time is when Cecil Smith and Butch Atwood's time lines intersect, which is when Cecil Smith knocked on Butch Atwood's bus. Right now I believe this was at about 19:54, because Dick Guy implies that Cecil Smith returned to the accident site shortly after his arrival.

Cecil Smith's time could be calculated as follows:

If He arrived at 19:46:20 and he took 1 minute to see that the Saturn was abandoned and approach the Westman's front door, that would make it 19:47:20. If his conversation with the Westmans lasted 2:00, this would make it 19:49:20. If the drive to Butch Atwood's bus took 3:00, he would be at the Bus talking to Butch Atwood at 19:51:50. If the conversation with Butch Atwood took 1:00 the conversation would have ended at 19:53:50. If it took another 3:00 minutes to return to the accident site, he would have been there at 19:56:20 - which is just after the time Dick Guy Arrived (19:56:08).

[deleted] · 2017-11-30T07:38:58+00:00

OLD POST PART 3 It is not unreasonable to assume that Cecil Smith, who arrived on scene at 19:46:20 would have taken 5:30 (19:46:20 + 5:30 = 19:51:50 - see above) to 1.) See that the Saturn was abandoned, 2.) approach the Westman's home. 3.) talk to the Westman's briefly (asking "where is the girl?") and then 4.) drive up the street to approach Butch Atwood on his bus.

We would know we have good time approximations for Butch Atwood and Cecil Smith, if we can place both of them at Butch Atwood's bus at 19:51:50.

Butch Atwood's time could be calculated as follows:

I think it is reasonable to believe that he could have accomplished the following in 8 minutes (between 19:31 and 19:39) - and thus establish that as a rough estimate of his call time to Hanover dispatch:

Drive his bus 200 yards
Park his bus backwards in his driveway
Walk to his front door
Open his front door
Walk into the residence
Get the phone
Walk outside with phone and call police

I think the delay for busy circuits and finding the Hanover number took, at most, 1 minute, if Butch Atwood called from outside.

It doesn't take long (15 seconds maybe) to find out the circuits are busy.
Since Butch was outside, he had to have the phone number handy or by memory.
I doubt much time was wasted on additional calls to 911 before they decided to call Hanover instead.

Butch Atwood also said that "After about seven to nine minutes, he looked out and saw the Haverhill Police." (quote source linked above) This was after his call to Hanover dispatch. (19:31 + 8:00 (Butch Atwood Travel to Home) = 19:39 + 4:00 (Butch Atwood Length of Phone Call to Hanover) = 19:43 + 9:00 (Time of Cecil Smith to Arrive at Butch Atwood's bus after his phone call ended) = 19:52 - see below).

Also it is clear that Dick Guy was saying that the Saturn's driver was not at the Saturn at 19:56 when he arrived with the EMS. Specifically, he said "there was nobody at the site of the accident" when he arrived, but that was after Cecil Smith was on scene at 19:46:20, so he didn't mean Cecil Smith was not at the scene at all. However, he might have meant that Cecil Smith was not in the immediate vicinity of the Saturn, as he was 100 yards up the road talking to Butch Atwood.

No effect on the time - but after Hanover dispatch called dispatcher Rhonda Marsh at 19:43, Rhonda Marsh (Grafton) called the Atwood residence [They reached his common law wife, he was outside] (This took place after 19:43, say 19:44, if this call lasted a minute). Butch Atwood's common law wife was on the phone until 19:48, the time dispatcher Rhonda Marsh finished writing her narrative. This idea is reinforced by the assumption that Butch Atwood's common law wife was probably on the phone until after 19:46:20 [in second Atwood call] because Anthony Stiles logged Cecil Smith's arrival at 19:46:20, not Rhonda Marsh, who was presumably preoccupied talking to Ms. Atwood.

[deleted] · 2017-11-30T07:39:27+00:00

OLD POST PART 4

A newspaper article in which Butch Atwood is interviewed: https://www.reddit.com/r/MauraMurrayEvidence/comments/4yq4rq/newspaper_articles/d7gnk2o?st=iswtug9r&sh=4b91b516

The idea that Faith Westman's call to dispatcher Rhonda Marsh ended at 19:29:31 makes some sense, because, presumably, dispatcher Rhonda Marsh could only have one conversation at a time. The implication of accepting 19:29:31 as the time that the Faith Westman-Rhonda Marsh conversation ended, is that Cecil Smith was dispatched simultaneous to the time when the call ended between Faith Westman and the dispatcher. He could not have arrived instantly at the scene. If this is true, it certainly means that the Westmans were mistaken and that the officer that arrived prior to their conversation ending, was not Cecil Smith - it was another law enforcement officer that was not dispatched to the scene, that was coincidentally in the area.

The idea that Faith Westman's call to dispatcher Rhonda Marsh ended at 19:35, places an officer at the scene at 19:35, 11 minutes before Cecil Smith arrived on scene. Again, this means that the Westmans were likely mistaken and that the officer that arrived prior to their conversation ending, was not Cecil Smith - it was another law enforcement officer that was not dispatched to the scene, that was coincidentally in the area.

Of course, if this hypothetical mystery officer told Maura Murray she was under arrest for DUI, she would not have screamed. That no screams were heard, eliminates the idea that an accident-site-dirtbag (that could not be mistaken for LE) abducted her there. See "The Law of Noisy Abductions, here."

[1] Dispatcher Rhonda Marsh finished entering the call narrative into the system at 19:40. If Cecil Smith arrived at 19:40, then Cecil Smith is not the individual Witness A saw at 19:37 PM. Additionally, if Cecil Smith arrived at 19:40 PM, there probably isn't a "mystery officer" involved, because, I cannot imagine how the "mystery officer" could have picked up Maura Murray and left in time to go unnoticed by Cecil Smith, who arrived at 19:46:20, only 6 minutes later. Dispatcher Rhonda Marsh was on the phone with Hanover dispatch at 19:43, certainly finished with the phone call to Faith Westman. In other words Witness A places another officer at the scene, not Cecil Smith.

[2] "I asked Mr. Westman why he and Mrs. Westman stopped watching the site. He stated that Mrs. Westman remained in the kitchen until the cruiser arrived..."

[deleted] · 2017-11-30T07:41:03+00:00

OLD POST PART 5

Additional corroborative analysis:

Quoting a question from /u/Bill_Occam

But if I recall Karen McNamara's interview correctly, she was shown a photograph of the Haverhill 001 SUV and she confirmed it was the one she saw.

Yes - I am aware of this. And I am aware of the time - and accept the 7:37PM time that has been calculated to approximate (margin of error of a minute) when she was there. But it could not have been Cecil Smith's 001 that she saw.

Witness A is placed at the scene at 7:37 PM. I am, for the sake of argument (in your favor), saying that the call between Faith Westman and dispatcher Rhonda Marsh ended at 7:35, the time Rhonda Marsh entered a notation in the computer system.

If I were to insist that the call between Faith Westman and dispatcher Rhonda Marsh ended at 7:40, the time that Rhonda Marsh entered her narrative about her phone call with Faith Westman, there is no way Witness A saw Cecil Smith. This is because Witness A would have had to have driven hazardously at an average of 54 miles an hour on a pitch black windy road the entire way to Beaver Pond. See this chart This would set the time of Cecil Smith's arrival at 7:40 PM, because, recall, that the notes from the interview with Faith Westman indicate what she had said: "Still on the phone with 911. 12. Hears a car goes back to the kitchen window. 13. See Smith nose to nose hangs up with 911." In other words, Faith Westman's conversation with dispatcher Rhonda Marsh ended once Faith Westman saw an "officer" arrive.

However, I am assuming that Cecil Smith arrived at 7:35 for the sake of argument (in your favor). With that in mind, and quoting Maggie Freleng: "We also know that Cecil immediately went and knocked on neighbors doors.[1]" Obviously "immediately" does not equate to after 7:43. Lets say he was at the Westman's door at 7:37PM, the moment Witness A drove by, seeing no one around the 001 or the Saturn.

According to Faith Westman, as reported by Cold N. Holfield here and quoted below at [2]. as soon as Cecil Smith arrived at her door, Cecil Smith asked "where is the girl?" This is verified by Whitewash's notes that say: "Smith shows up and wants to know if the driver is there. 17.There is no one at the car. Faith looks out the window and the car is dark."

[deleted] · 2017-11-30T07:42:30+00:00

OLD POST PART 7

Based on the facts reflected in both the Grafton County Sheriff logs and Cecil Smith's own report, there is no reason to doubt that Cecil Smith arrived at the accident site at 7:46:20 PM.

We certainly know the latest Witness A could have been at the accident scene is 7:39PM. Erin has a nice chart showing this on an earlier post. Therefore, we also know it was impossible for Witness A to have been there before Cecil Smith arrived, at earliest 7:43PM.

Add the fact that the Westmans have said that they hung up the phone with dispatcher Rhonda Marsh when they perceived an officer arrived, and the fact that her phone call must have finished before 7:40 PM when the narrative was entered into the dispatch system by Rhonda Marsh, it is crystal clear that another vehicle was there and left the scene before Cecil Smith arrived.

If Cecil was driving 001 then: - There was no Jeff Williams killing Maura -

The evidence does not allow me to make this claim. However, the evidence seems to indicate that another vehicle arrived and left before Cecil Smith arrived.

Witness A is still entirely credible

**I'm not questioning her credibility - I don't assume that she must have (or have not) been completely accurate

We have a reason why 001 was there - after all we have not found ANY proof that he was in the sedan. So, I don't think Cecil driving 001 contradicts anything.

Agreed on this point.

Possibly Smith arrived earlier, and didn't check in. It happens.

Unfortunately, when I look at the facts from every angle - the facts do not support this hypothesis.

It doesn't have to be nefarious.

I haven't suggested it was, at least on the part of Cecil Smith.

My wish is that we move on from 001 speculation without any clear proof of Cecil lying that he was in 001,

To be clear - I'm not saying that Cecil Smith was lying about being in the 001 that night - I have no basis to make a determination. However, one might presume that he was lying, but I am not willing to do so.

and we focus on finding out who took (and sadly probably harmed) Maura Murray.

Yes - my focus is on finding out who took Maura Murray (If that is indeed what happened).

Unfortunately the possibilities regarding who that could have been are wider than what you have proposed. Consider Erin's writing about Bruce McKay here: http://www.the107degree.com/single-post/2016/12/06/Bruce-McKay

Now - I wouldn't necessarily assume Bruce McKay was driving the 001. However, one must admit that he might have driven by the accident scene, given the evidence we have. I'll go so far as to say that looking into McKay further is definitely a responsible thing to do.

I'll add the following: Art mentioned the following in one of his podcast interviews:

"...we did ask Jeff Williams where he was that evening he said he was out to dinner in Woodsville um and uh never went by the crash sight and when we, you know, when we look at all of these interviews put together when we we look at Cecil's interview we look at Jeff WIlliams' interview um you know we know statements that have been made by uh the Westmans, by the Marottes, by the Atwoods, I mean there is absolutely nothing that points to the fact that Jeff Williams was at the scene that night, and I think that is an important point."

Art went on to say:

"Um because when we started this you know we wanted to get down to the facts corroborate everybody's statements and I think that is what we did uh throughout every one of these episodes."

However, we know that Jeff Williams lived right near the accident site on Bradley Hill Road. If Butch Atwood were to drive his bus straight from his driveway, he would pass Jeff Williams' home. The only way to get from Woodsville to his home on Bradley Hill Road was to travel past the accident site when he returned. From this, we know that they only went by the statements that were made by witnesses, but they didn't check the veracity of the statements by other means, such as determining where Jeff Williams lived in relation to the accident site and the restaurant in Woodsville.

The result is that they didn't consider important evidence that would have caused them to question the answer they received from Jeff Williams. Note I am not saying this means any conclusions could be drawn about Jeff Williams.

With regard to Cecil Smith's statements, Art has also said here: https://youtu.be/72kI8Rk5xRc?t=39m00s

"The only thing that's been was corroborated is the fact that Cecil was there in 001. We talked to Cecil, right, we have witnesses, we have Karen McNamara going by seeing the SUV there. So, I mean, that's the bottom line."

Maggie and Art seem to only be going by witness statements. It does not appear that they have corroborated the statements against other sources of documentation, such as police logs.

So although Maggie Freeleng has stated here: "I mean you need to look at evidence and facts!" - they apparently couldn't follow their intentions completely. We all know that the facts are voluminous overwhelmingly complicated.

We are getting way too convoluted with 001, and we can't see the forest for the trees.

Unfortunately we are presented with a complicated set of circumstances and therefore we have to deal with those complicated circumstances.

And more Q & A - with /u/avamonroe

And, to go further - if another car was there before Cecil (as 001), And finally, if solid evidence is released (Which hopefully will be soon) that Cecil was driving 001 that night

I'm not prepared to say that it is an either-or proposition.

But

if another car was there before Cecil, what is the implication?

A police impersonator is possible. A different LE jurisdiction's vehicle with 001. Another LE jurisdictional vehicle was there without 001, but Witness A thought she saw 001. A car that looked like but was not LE.

And finally, if solid evidence is released (Which hopefully will be soon) that Cecil was driving 001 that night, where do we go from there?

We try to find out who arrived and left before he did.

a) does the argument of Cecil arriving later hinge mostly on the word "girl" (setting timing in logs aside because do we know how accurate they are?

I am fairly certain there is nothing wrong with the Grafton County Dispatch Logs, details provided in the link:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MauraMurrayEvidence/comments/4xrt2s/completeness_of_grafton_county_log_nature_of/?st=j9nai59c&sh=ce9c170c

If these logs were altered, the call numbers would appear out of time order.

So, what I want to know is - a) does the argument of Cecil arriving later hinge mostly on the word "girl" (setting timing in logs aside because do we know how accurate they are? If so please point me to literature)

Actually no. But the set of details in coming to a conclusion are more complicated. They rest upon the fact that Faith Westman told Whitewash that she hung up the phone after, they believed, Cecil Smith arrived. Its dark out there - and I consider the possibility that they were mistaken - and that it was not Cecil Smith, based upon other evidence that we have.

Cecil Smith said that he spent, at most, a few minutes with Butch Atwood. I assume he spent the same amount of time with the Westmans.

Now, even if I set aside the "Where's the girl" factor - I still have good reason to believe that Cecil Smith was at the accident scene at 7:46:20.

First - he said he arrived at 7:45 in his accident report.

Second - Calling in an arrival is a requirement and would have been a habit

Third - the Grafton County dispatch logs record that he said he arrived at 7:46:20

AJAYM22 · 2017-11-16T03:39:31+00:00

Now to consider a good question raised by /u/AJAYM22

"Is it possible that Hanover dispatch informed Smith of the details contained in BA's 911 call directly (and possibly before) they informed Grafton's dispatch?"

To answer this question, 3 issues should be addressed: 1.) When did Butch Atwood's call with Hanover start? (this is the earliest moment Hanover could attempt to inform Cecil Smith) 2.) Would Hanover attempt to radio out to Cecil Smith? 3.) If Hanover radioed to Cecil Smith - would he hear the call?

The most direct answer for this question goes to point #2 above: The fact that Hanover called the Grafton County dispatcher, tells us that Hanover dispatch felt that this was the appropriate way to notify an out of jurisdiction officer of the call. In short it was the only choice for Hanover to call the Grafton County dispatcher, as Hanover does not dispatch officers from any other jurisdiction but Hanover. This means that Hanover does not dispatch officers from Haverhill, its dispatch system is for Hanover only. Hanover has its own computer system and their own dispatch log numbers. As such, Hanover is not equipped to know which officers were on duty from Haverhill that night, let alone Cecil Smith's Haverhill call sign. However, since it is the Grafton County dispatcher's job to dispatch a number of jurisdictions - including Haverhill - and they would be equipped and ready to dispatch a Haverhill officer - and to know that Cecil Smith was on duty and what his call sign was - and would be able to radio out to the appropriate Haverhill officer on a frequency Haverhill officers actively listened to - it makes sense for Hanover dispatch to inform Grafton dispatch of the call. The frequencies are shown here.

Certainly, if Hanover did attempt to call Cecil Smith over the radio, its not impossible for him to have heard it. But I have no reason to believe that Hanover would call Cecil Smith over the radio and every reason to believe that Hanover didn't.

As to point #1 above - per the Westmans and the Grafton County Sheriff's logs, Butch Atwood was at the scene between 7:28 and 7:29 PM and left the scene between 7:29 and 7:31. Another parameter we have is that Butch Atwood's call to Hanover ended at 7:43, the time that Hanover dispatch called Grafton County dispatcher Rhonda Marsh.

Above, I figure that Butch's call to Hanover started, at earliest, 7:39 PM. However, Perhaps it could be argued that Butch's call started at 7:35PM, if I give him the earliest time to leave the scene of the accident 7:29PM and 2 minutes to: 1.) leave his bus and walk to is door, 2.) open his door 3.) Find and retrieve a cordless phone 4.) walk back out onto the porch 5.) Attempt a call with Grafton County dispatch 6.) Call Hanover's dispatch via 7 digit dial - assuming he had the number memorized.

I've given Butch 4 minutes to do (1 - 6 above) post Bus exit activities. And have him leave at 7:31 PM from the accident site, 3 minutes to drive the length to his driveway at 1 minute to back his bus in backwards into the driveway. That's how I have his call starting at 7:39.

As to number 3 - we can't exclude he would hear the call, but it is not likely he would - as he was responsible for monitoring a different radio frequency from that of Hanover's.

Summary - even though it could be possible in the extreme (from a time perspective) that Hanover could have called Cecil Smith directly to inform him that a woman was in the accident, it is counter intuitive to assume so, given 1.) the way Hanover's calls are handled separately from Grafton County dispatch and 2.) the fact that it would have been redundant for Hanover dispatch to call the Grafton County dispatcher to dispatch an officer to the scene, had they already dispatched an officer and 3.) Hanover does not have the authority to dispatch officers from other jurisdictions.

[deleted] · 2017-11-30T07:42:05+00:00

OLD POST PART 6

But the main point is this. It is impossible that Cecil Smith could have known a "girl" was involved in the single car accident at 7:37PM, because Hanover dispatch had not informed dispatcher Rhonda Marsh that there was a woman at the car until 7:43!

This means that Cecil Smith could not asked Tim and Faith Westman about a "girl" until after 7:43! Yet we are told that he asked them that within a few minutes of arrival.

How do we know Cecil Smith could not have been aware that a female was involved in the single car accident before 7:43? Well, the dispatch narrative that was entered into the system at 7:40 by Rhonda Marsh, regarding her call with Faith Westman only mention a man. The call started at 7:27. Quoting the dispatch logs:

"Narrative: 02/09/2004 1940 Marsh, Rhonda

At 1927, FAITH WESTMAN CALLED, TO ADV OF A VEH IN THE DITCH RIGHT ON SHARP TURN AFTER THE WEATHERED BARN. UNK IF PI, BUT CAN SEE A MAN IN VEH SMOKING CIGARETTE, WAS E/B RT 112, BUT ENDED UP IN W/B DITCH FACING W/B."

It wasn't until 7:43, when Hanover dispatch called dispatcher Rhonda Marsh, that anyone would be in a position to inform Cecil Smith that he was looking for a woman, and not a man. Quoting the dispatch logs:

"Narrative: 02/09/2004 1948 Marsh, Rhonda

AT 1943, HANOVER DISP CALLED TO ADV GOT A 911 CALL FOR US; 911 ADVISED ALL CIRCUITS BUSY: IS FOR 10-25, CALLER AT 2 WILD AMMONOOSUC RD, BUTCH ATWOOD RES, 747-3664. THEY ADV ONE FEMALE. NO PI, BUT SHOOK UP. (CALLED THE ATWOOD RES. WOMAN ADV HER HUSBAND SAW THE CRASH AND CAME HERE TO CALL, BUT NO IDEA WHERE THE FEMALE IS."

[1] I don't like saying I disagree with Maggie Freleng's hypothesis (bold portion below) that Cecil Smith called in his arrival "late" - but the evidence tells me otherwise. I do think she means well. Maggie Freleng's entire quote is as follows: "We also know that Cecil immediately went and knocked on neighbors doors. That's why he called in his arrival late, 7:46, and she did not see him. He was doing his job, concerned about what happened and getting witness statements before he remembered to call in."

[2] "Per my interview with the Westmans, they indicated that he did indeed come to their door and his first words to them were 'where's the girl?' "

Another proposed timeline, made by /u/avamonroe, based on lostinthewoods timeline.

But, here is a great (in my opinion) timeline posted on Erinn's blog:

7:27 Faith calls 911 to report a single car accident Involving a dark car off the road.

At 7:29 butch comes along in his bus. Faith and Tim return to their office.

7:31 butch continues home and backs bus into driveway. Fills out mileage and payroll info for bus co.

7:35 Cecil’s accident report states he arrived on scene at 7:35. When he arrived he said he inspected the scene, looked in car etc

7:43 Butch calls 911 is told circuits are busy will call back. Tells wife and mom about accident goes back out to bus to fill out paperwork. (It is the period in which Butch went in house and Faith went back in office that she disappeared, 7:31 to 7:35).

7:40 Cecil Asks Westmans if girl is with them.

7:39 Witness A drives by sees the 001

7:46 Cecil contacts dispatch.

7:52 Witness A reaches Beaver Pond road and calls home assuming she drove @40 to 45 mph (a realistic speed in NH). Consider too, she is running late and in a hurry to get home, roads are dry etc, etc...

If Cecil was driving 001 then: - There was no Jeff Williams killing Maura - Witness A is still entirely credible - We have a reason why 001 was there - after all we have not found ANY proof that he was in the sedan. So, I don't think Cecil driving 001 contradicts anything.

Possibly Smith arrived earlier, and didn't check in. It happens. It doesn't have to be nefarious.

What this DOES present, however is, that if Cecil was there earlier, then Maura disappeared in a shorter time than previously thought.

My wish is that we move on from 001 speculation without any clear proof of Cecil lying that he was in 001, and we focus on finding out who took (and sadly probably harmed) Maura Murray. We are getting way too convoluted with 001, and we can't see the forest for the trees.

7:35 Cecil’s accident report states he arrived on scene at 7:35.

Unfortunately, that is not the case.

We know Cecil Smith had to arrive AFTER 7:43PM, because Cecil Smith could not have asked the Westmans "Where is the Girl?" until AFTER 7:43PM.

It was only until after 7:43 PM that dispatcher Rhonda Marsh was notified (by Hanover dispatch) that a woman was involved in the accident. So, 7:43PM is the earliest moment that dispatcher Rhonda March could have informed Cecil Smith that a woman was involved in the accident.

It was at 7:43 when her call ended with Hanover dispatch, and Hanover dispatch informed Rhonda Marsh that a woman was involved in the accident.

The fact is clear that Faith Westman, the individual that called 911, told dispatcher Rhonda Marsh that she saw a man smoking a cigarette.

Prior to 7:43PM, Cecil Smith would have been looking for a MAN. This is reflected in Rhonda Marsh's 7:40PM narrative of her call with the Westmans.

Therefore, the earliest Cecil Smith could have been at the scene is 7:43PM.

Furthermore, in Cecil Smith's report that you reference, Cecil Smith said he was DISPATCHED at 7:35PM, and ARRIVED at 7:45PM.

The document is here: https://static.wixstatic.com/media/ecfcd6_7209d1c7e99c45b69f94b236e6b3c42b~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_876,h_329,al_c,lg_1/ecfcd6_7209d1c7e99c45b69f94b236e6b3c42b~mv2.png

The dispatch logs have Cecil Smith ARRIVING at 7:46:20PM.

Devlyn99 · 2017-11-13T14:48:27+00:00

I'm confused. Why isn't it possible for Cecil Smith to have arrived at or around 7:35? That seems to be the most logical explanation to me. That he called in his arrival time later than when he actually arrived, and that he wrote it down in his report wrong as well. But why couldn't he be the officer that Mrs. Westman saw arrive? That seems to be the only way that it would work at all for witness A to have seen the SUV if he was driving it, as he says he was.

LotharLothar · 2017-11-04T18:06:28+00:00

1) Butch Atwood's account of events supports your conclusion that Smith obtained the gender of the driver from Atwood.

Pulled from the Caledonian Record, 'The next thing he knew, Haverhill Police Department Sgt. Cecil Smith was banging on his bus window. Smith asked him if he had called in the accident and seen anyone at the scene. Atwood told Smith he had seen a girl about 20 with dark hair.' The Caledonian-Record February 20, 2004 https://www.reddit.com/r/MauraMurrayEvidence/comments/4yq4rq/newspaper_articles/d7gnk2o

Miss Atwood's comments, assuming they are direct quotes, are very interesting. 1) Miss Atwood reports that 'he saw the crash'. Not a linguist per se, but if someone says to me that they saw a 'crash', I don't think they saw the scene of an accident, I think they saw the accident occur. If someone says I saw an accident, as opposed to crash, while still possible they saw the actual accident occur, I am more likely to believe that they just saw the scene of an accident. 2) That she communicates that 'has no idea where the female is' strikes me as very strange. (Assuming no foul play) Wouldn't Butch have told her that he offered to give her a ride, but she declined and he had left her with her car? Did dispatch already know Maura was missing from the scene? Were they asking where Maura had disappeared to? I don't believe this to be the case. What seems more likely is dispatched posed a standard follow up question,something along the lines of 'is female, with you now' or 'where is the suspect at this time'... (and to be clear, the linked article above states that Maura's vehicle was not visible from the house, so Miss Atwood could not have been asked these questions, looked at the crash site, and then said I have no idea where she is)...again, assuming no foul play, wouldn't you simply say that she was at the crash site, or had last been seen there? ASSUMING FOUL PLAY....when asked this question Miss Atwood messed up and prematurely launched into what would become their narrative,that she had vanished. Unless they had taken her or had scene what happened to her, how could they have known she was gone?

LotharLothar · 2017-11-21T09:15:44+00:00

His wife called in, he didn’t.

Amyjane1203 · 2017-12-19T01:31:12+00:00

Thanks for putting all this information together! The next question is, who picked her up? I have my own ideas of who of course... Without any evidence or a body, it seems like every idea is a dead end for now.

edit: I feel like I'll be pondering on this post for a few days, but something just popped in my mind. Faith Westman says she saw #001, but we also know that it was pretty dark out so it's possible she is mistaken. Did she actually say to the dispatcher that it appeared to be #001? (You may have said this in your post--I'm sorry if I'm overlooking it) Is it possible she later saw Cecil Smith's car and, in her mind, Smith's car became the same car she had seen when she got off the phone?

Try_Using_Your_Brain · 2017-12-29T00:15:33+00:00

Question from: /u/Try_Using_Your_Brain

Let me start by saying that I am in no way trying to start a fight or attack anyone.

I understand this inherently. My hope is that these discussions will lead to more well thought out positions.

I have a few small questions/theories that I think could make both the 001 sighting and the "where's the girl" lines converge.

Before I start, I will state that:

1. You have brought two important factors into the discussion that is important to consider, i.e. the portability of the radios and time to call in the license plate.

2. My personal opinion is that the below timeline is the most viable one made for the "Official Oxygen position" (OOP).

3. My additional personal opinion is that the most viable version of the (OOP) should be stated so that researchers understand the assumptions made for the (OOP) and its strengths and weaknesses. Researchers should be able to determine if the best formed proposed timeline for (OOP) is "good enough."

4. My additional personal opinion is that the (OOP) still falls short.

(Rearranged for flow)

Do we believe that between arriving and leaving the only exchange was the BOLO?

I presume you are referring to H2. Although not apropros to the point implied, there are 6 time association to H2 in the log: dispatch, enroute, arrival, cleared, BOLO and notes taken when H2 was cleared.

1. We have to assume that there is some major points missing from the narrative in the log: Where are the notes about H2 talking to FW and TW or BA?

I would not characterize the missing time associations as major - therefore preventing reasonable conclusions from being drawn about any of them.

It would be ideal for us to have original LE documentation that includes time associations for H2's discussions with both FW/TW and BA.

However, we have been able to make some time associations based upon statements made by both FW and BA. Although, I cannot state that we have a irrefutable time association for H2's arrival at FW/TW based upon their statements, I can say that we can arrive at some reasonable conclusions if we assume that H2 took reasonable actions throughout his time during the incident.

On the other hand, we do have a good approximation of H2's arrival at BA, and this time association assumes the same reasonable actions for H2 throughout.

I will say that your alternative proposed timeline (APT) does not violate the below fundamental time associations for FW/TW or BA. Fundamental time associations include, but are not limited to: BA's arrival time, BA's departure time, 7:35 arrival of vehicle (and lastly) H2 arrival time at BA.

However, my personal opinion is that the (APT) is inconsistent with the idea that H2 took the most efficient and appropriate actions between his arrival at the scene and his discussion with BA.

I will further state that some of the time assumptions in the (APT) are marginally inconsistent with some details stated by Art and Maggie in EP 65 & 66. They have made statements that imply that H2 wasted no time after his arrival while looking at the Saturn and then going to the Westmans.

Additionally, the (APT) leaves about 2:30-4:30 unexplained between the FW/TW interview and the BA interview.

Lastly, and most importantly, the (APT) disregards Cecil Smith's arrival time in official LE records (police report (7:45) and the Grafton County Sheriff Logs 7:46:20). Instead, the (APT) treats a theoretically derived H2 arrival time of 7:35 as more authoritative than LE records. The 7:35 arrival time is derived from a combination of Witness A's account from that evening and Cecil Smith's assertion that he was driving Haverhill's SUV 001 on that same evening.

2. I would assume the first thing that the officer arriving at the scene would call in the plates

This is supported by a statement made by Cecil Smith to the Murray family and mentioned in the The Caledonian-Record on February 9, 2009: "Murray's family said Smith told them he thought the driver of the Saturn was Murray's father, to whom the car was registered."

3. Police officers wear portable radios - that is the thing they talk into on their shoulder - so they do not need to be in their car to send or receive information.

&

(rearranged for flow)

Regardless of anyone's thoughts on CS and 001, it is completely feasible that an officer could have know about "the girl" relatively quickly after arriving at the scene even without seeing her.

&

It's also feasible that dispatch is providing updated info real-time as the get info from Hanover (even before talking to BA or his wife).

This is a perfectly reasonable assumption and would explain how, between H2's assumed plate inquiry and arrival at FW's door, H2 would know about "the girl." Of course, this assumption can only be made if we assume that H2 was notified about "the girl" after 7:43.

4. The "Narrative" section of the police log is entered manually (like a text string) so the times entered are manual not "time stamps"

Agreed and I have never assumed otherwise.

and therefore could reasonable be a minute or two off.

A minute or two. But not 10 minutes, as the (APT) states.

So could the timeline not look like (*base copied from Devlyn99):

7:26 Accident is heard by Westmans.

Not unreasonable.

7:27 Faith calls 911.

Agreeed

7:29 Atwood arrives and offers assistance.

Agreed (1-2 min per FW)

7:31 Atwood drives home to call 911.

Agreed (1-2 min per FW)

7:31-7:35 Maura leaves the scene.

7:32 - post "flurry of activity" - and if you have Smith there at 7:35, she really would have had to start walking at about 7:33

7:35 Faith hears car pull up, sees an officer, hangs up with 911.

Agreed. However, you assume its Smith, I say it could have been any vehicle.

7:35-7:37 Smith checks area of Maura's car, looks inside & see's no one.

2 minutes is a bit slow, but OK. I say 1 minute 30 seconds, so alternatively 7:36:30.

7:37-7:39 Smith radios in to check on owner of the car.

2 minutes is a bit slow, but OK. I say 30 seconds to radio, he doesn't have to sit due to portability. He has a possibly injured driver to be concerned with. So alternatively 7:37.

In my time line, I give Cecil Smith a minute and 30 seconds to do all the above. I added 30 seconds for the license inquiry.

7:39-7:42 Smith walks over to speak to Westmans

Art says 50 seconds. So alternatively 7:37:50. Of course that is before 7:43, so its impossible.

7:43 Smith can ask the Westmans "where's the girl" during his first conversation with them without having been to BA or seeing MM before hand.

&

to ask if the driver is in their house and while walking Smith is updated by dispatch about the call between BA and Hanover 911. (Dispatch could have been on the phone with Hanover and sending updates via radio to Smith while he looks around the site or even stands at the door of the Westman's)

If we accept (APT) from 7:43 - we have disregarded some wasted time. However, (APT) attempts to explain with the following:

It makes no sense that he would throw the car in park and run to the door of the Westmans; he is going to do some looking around and data collecting before running off to their house even if it's noted as "the first thing" he did.

Arguably, you are at 7:37:50 when H2 arrives at FW. In any case, he couldn't be at the Westmans until after 7:43.

(APT) has him taking 6 minutes in what could reasonably take 2:50 seconds in my opinion, especially if the driver's health is a concern and H2 is acting responsibly.

And then there is the rest of the time line to consider:

7:43:50 - H2 arrives back at his vehicle (50 seconds)
7:44:50 - H2 drives to BA's bus. (1 minute) The above is in conflict with a fundamental time: H2 arrives at BA at 7:43 + 7 to 9 minutes, which is 7:50 - 7:52. This is another fundamental problem with (OOP) & (APT), not to mention that it disregards official LE records.

AJAYM22 · 2018-01-10T03:40:39+00:00

A question in regards to Butch Atwood- Critical Statement #1

Cecil Smith Arrived At Butch Atwood's Bus 7 - 9 Minutes After His Phone Call to Hanover Dispatch Ended

After reading the two newspaper articles that are referenced in the above claim, it would seem that the 7-9 minutes the articles mention pertains to the time elapsed between Butch leaving Maura and Cecil arriving on scene, as opposed to the elapsed time between the end of Butch's 911 call and the arrival of Cecil at his bus.

The Caledonian-Record 2/20/2004:

"After about seven to nine minutes, he looked out and saw the Haverhill Police. Atwood believed the situation was under control and went to the school bus to tend to his paperwork.

The next thing he knew, Haverhill Police Department Sgt. Cecil Smith was banging on his bus window. Smith asked him if he had called in the accident and seen anyone at the scene. Atwood told Smith he had seen a girl about 20 with dark hair.

Smith said when he arrived, Murray was no longer with her car. In the seven to nine minutes between the time Atwood had left Murray to call for help and the time Smith arrived, Murray had vanished."

If that were the case, the times line up perfectly with witness A's account.

Thoughts?

MauraMurrayEvidence

MODERATORS

Welcome to Reddit,

WAY TOO MUCH WORK TO VERIFY A TIME IN THE LOGS. ONE WESTMAN INTERVIEW THAT CONFIRMS 15 MINUTE POLICE ARRIVAL WAS HELD BACK.

THE WESTMAN 911 CALL WAS SO SHORT IT CALLS THE WHITEWASH INTERVIEW INTO QUESTION AND POSSIBLE 729 VEHICHLE. ITS QUESTIONABLE ENOUGH THAT IM PUTTING NO MORE TIME INTO THIS.

NEEDS TO BE REVISED (FIRST CAR ARRIVAL IS NOW DOUBTFUL. PRELIMINARILY, I BELIEVE THE EFFECT ON CECIL SMITH ARRIVAL TIME IS NEGLIGIBLE)

1 Introduction

2 The Evidence

3 Discussion of the Evidence

3.1 Butch Atwood's Timeline

Want to add to the discussion?

Agreed - so we need to find out who this was - and it wasn't Cecil Smith.

No you don't come across as nit-picky or annoying. We're here to figure out what is up.

He was en route at 21:26:42 & Arrived at 21:35:22

Google maps shows this taking 11 minutes. He got there in 9, in a vehicle that can exceed the speed limit.

Good question by the way. You made me think. LOL.

Another good question by the way. So far the most legit.

"So when Sgt, Cecil Smith showed up at their door later asking about the vehicle's driver, Faith Westman was shocked. Faith remembers going to the kitchen window and checking the abandoned vehicle in disbelief for herself."

Yes - because it is important that people understand what is known and unknown, what is fact and what is speculation. To know what you really know and know what you don't know.

Yes - because it is important that people know what questions are critical to ask - questions that will either support or debunk a theory.

Yes - because it is important that people know what facts support a hypothesis, down to the smallest detail.

Yes - because it is important that people know what facts contradict the hypothesis.

The fact is clear that Faith Westman, the individual that called 911, told dispatcher Rhonda Marsh that she saw a man smoking a cigarette. This newspaper article by Maribeth Conway reiterates the fact that Faith Westman thought it was a man and Tim Westman thought it was a woman:

Folks I've tested this time line six ways from Sunday. I'm fairly certain there was another vehicle there before Cecil Smith arrived. Yet no one is talking about this important fact.

OLD POST part 1

I need to revise the timeline for travel down the street from 3 minutes to 30 seconds to 1 minute, based on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsJ7cb_73n4&feature=youtu.be

Needs to be revised to show that Faith Westman's call ended at 17:36, when she took a call from Grafton.

Complicated post that shows another officer vehicle was at the scene before Cecil Smith arrived. That vehicle could have been any type of car the Westmans could have mistaken for an officer. It was dark out there Both the Westmans and Witness A saw this vehicle.

Of course, if this hypothetical mystery officer told Maura Murray she was under arrest for DUI, she would not have screamed. That no screams were heard, eliminates the idea that an accident-site-dirtbag (that could not be mistaken for LE) abducted her there. See "The Law of Noisy Abductions, here."

Yes - I am aware of this. And I am aware of the time - and accept the 7:37PM time that has been calculated to approximate (margin of error of a minute) when she was there. But it could not have been Cecil Smith's 001 that she saw.

Witness A is placed at the scene at 7:37 PM. I am, for the sake of argument (in your favor), saying that the call between Faith Westman and dispatcher Rhonda Marsh ended at 7:35, the time Rhonda Marsh entered a notation in the computer system.

To be clear - I'm not saying that Cecil Smith was lying about being in the 001 that night - I have no basis to make a determination. However, one might presume that he was lying, but I am not willing to do so.

Unfortunately we are presented with a complicated set of circumstances and therefore we have to deal with those complicated circumstances.

But the main point is this. It is impossible that Cecil Smith could have known a "girl" was involved in the single car accident at 7:37PM, because Hanover dispatch had not informed dispatcher Rhonda Marsh that there was a woman at the car until 7:43!

This means that Cecil Smith could not asked Tim and Faith Westman about a "girl" until after 7:43! Yet we are told that he asked them that within a few minutes of arrival.

"Narrative: 02/09/2004 1940 Marsh, Rhonda

It wasn't until 7:43, when Hanover dispatch called dispatcher Rhonda Marsh, that anyone would be in a position to inform Cecil Smith that he was looking for a woman, and not a man. Quoting the dispatch logs:

"Narrative: 02/09/2004 1948 Marsh, Rhonda

Another proposed timeline, made by /u/avamonroe, based on lostinthewoods timeline.

Furthermore, in Cecil Smith's report that you reference, Cecil Smith said he was DISPATCHED at 7:35PM, and ARRIVED at 7:45PM.

No, I am not saying Cecil Smith took Maura. This is the third time I've said this.

If you think a dirtbag picked Maura up on the road at the accident site - all I have done is show that there is evidence to show that the other vehicle could have been the local dirtbag. Fact is it could have been any kind of vehicle.

You believe Maura was gone when Cecil Smith arrived, correct? I'm showing that another vehicle was there before Cecil Smith was arrived.

Never made that claim. This case is complex - and every building block towards a solution must be carefully examined and determined.

Just because everyone says the Earth is the center of the universe - doesn't mean its true. The devil is in the detail - and you have to examine the details to make a determination, both in this case and with the Universe.

"Elsewhere Protestants were the first to react to news of Copernicus's theory. Melanchthon wrote:

This is exactly what I think happened. :)

Lots of good original thought here. Where original thought is expressed, progress is made. :)